liv: cast iron sign showing etiolated couple drinking tea together (argument)
[personal profile] liv
This has been brewing for a while, but I'm sticking my flag in the ground:
I won't be drawn into generational conflict in the LGBTQ+ community

There's nothing wrong with teenagers being teenagers. They are not responsible for society's awfulness, and particularly not for homophobia / queermisia. Yes, some individual teenagers are horrible people, but even the horrible ones have very little societal power. Teenagers are not, collectively, a threat to Queer adults.

Yes, it's upsetting when some younger people reject 'Queer' as an identity when our generation fought so hard to reclaim it. But they're entitled to choose their own identity words. If people prefer microidentities which describe their particular gender, sexual and romantic orientation and other parts of their being as precisely as possible, let them be. I am by nature a lumper, a broad umbrella person, but splitters aren't the enemy. And yes, I'm sure it's partly intentional that they are choosing terms that most people over 30 haven't heard of. That's the point, that's what young people are supposed to do, explore their identities in ways that aren't legible to olds.

It's completely normal and indeed laudable for young people to find their own aesthetics and their own cultural expressions for their identities. People who prefer pastels and frills, or clashing rainbows all over everything, or clothes featuring silly cartoon characters, rather than black leather or traditional drag / camp aren't "assimilationist". They're visibly, legibly non-heteronormative. Sometimes they all wear the same brands as a sign of rebellion, but branded clothes are what teenagers mostly have access to, doesn't mean they're sellouts. Sure, they are pushing back against some aspects of Queer culture from the previous generation, but that's fine, again, that's what teenagers are supposed to do. It's not teenagers wearing rainbow dungarees who are enacting violence against men with earrings and women with flannel shirts, it's not teenagers who are enforcing gender norms by finding new ways to express their non-standard genders.

I think most people understand that the new generation like different media from what was formative for us when we were their age. But younger people also approach fandom in a different way, and that's also fine. They might well be less tolerant of queer-baiting and shows that are either all white or perpetuate racial stereotypes, and they might be overly loud and strident in condemning things that affront their sense of justice. It's a good thing that young people now are not so desperate for scraps that they'll accept any form of "representation" no matter how bad it is. If they're sometimes obnoxious in their criticism, well, so be it, it's part of learning how to navigate the world to figure out which battles are worth fighting and which approaches are effective.

Also, the internet itself has changed almost beyond recognition. Teenagers aren't making carefully hand-crafted Geocities fan pages, nor are they writing long-form meta on LiveJournal. And if they're on Tumblr at all they're using it in a different way from when it was a frontier land where copyright and obscenity laws didn't exist. Yes, it's bad to use corporate walled garden sites like Instagram and TikTok, but it's not teenagers who killed the open internet, it was already moribund by the time they were old enough to get online. And it's not just finding different places to form their communities, it's a different fandom culture, partly because there is far more surveillance, far more danger to their offline selves if they are careless in public. They don't have the same etiquette that Queer media fandom developed in the 2000s. Their manners might be worse in some ways, better in others, but mainly they're different and that itself isn't a reason to panic.

This is possibly the most controversial part of my rant, but I actually think it's ok for teenagers to be uncomfortable discussing sexually explicit topics with people twice their age or more. It doesn't mean they're "puriteens" or "tenderqueers" or any of the other horrible names that older people call them. I realize that for many of our generation, writing and discussing detailed descriptions of exactly how Harry Potter might have had sex with Snape was an important part of exploring our identities, it was an important part of our rebellion against heteronormative and sex negative society. But it's not necessary for everybody to follow the exact same path. I know people can come up with examples that are obviously ridiculous when it comes to criticism of fictional "age-gap" relationships where there isn't actually a meaningful power imbalance. But it's ok to prefer responses to your favourite media that don't centre detailed descriptions of adults having sex with children, whether such descriptions are valourized or presented as dark and fucked up. And it's ok, especially for young people who are still figuring out the world, to sometimes go a bit too far in their zeal for avoiding this kind of disturbing material.

My opinion is that the issue is not teens being overly prudish. There are far too many adults who do in fact prey on young people online, even people who are barely more than children. Most of them are straight men, the usual people who have enough social power to get away with behaviours that should otherwise be condemned. And it absolutely isn't fair that us innocent Queer adults who would never dream of hurting a child are caught in the backlash, but the problem isn't teenagers doing their best to protect themselves. They sometimes get it wrong, they see a threat where there is none, but that doesn't mean young people shouldn't be allowed to have boundaries around what conversations they want to be part of and what fic they want to read. I do believe that "don't like, don't read" is a good philosophy, but it doesn't take into account the way that the algorithm-driven internet, as well as individual bad actors, are in fact shoving unwanted material in front of young people all the time, and avoiding that takes effort beyond just not opting in.

Take the 'no kink at Pride' thing. It's not a young people versus real Queers thing. Everybody knows that the whole debate is an op originating from the nastier bits of the alt-right internet. But somehow everybody thinks it's just young people who fall for the manipulation, and never realize that middle-aged people are also being manipulated into believing that a whole younger generation are campaigning for Pride parades to be corporate friendly. Today's teenagers didn't cause mega-businesses to muscle in on Pride and other aspects of Queer culture. A particular individual teenager might be embarrassed by seeing someone on a leash in public, but they're not the real threat here.

In short, yes, it's uncomfortable when parts of your culture are rejected by the generation following you. But the real enemy is straight people who hold actual social power to harm Queer people, not teenagers who are sometimes clumsy and inept in their rebellion against the previous generation.

(no subject)

Date: 2022-05-11 09:05 pm (UTC)
redbird: closeup of me drinking tea, in a friend's kitchen (Default)
From: [personal profile] redbird
I happen to be wearing my rainbow "QUEERVILLE" shirt today, and a hospital staffer complimented me on it. I thanked her, and she said she also has that shirt, and we both probably got it from the Somerville High School GSA*. I also said that I wished I'd had anything like the space for queerness that those teens do--but part of what my generation fought for was precisely that things would be easier for younger people.

*The shirt is a portmanteau of "Somerville" and "queer," and this probably says a thing or two about Somerville. GSA in this context usually stands for Gay-Straight Alliance, but as of a couple of years ago, Somerville High School's GSA was the Gender and Sexuality Alliance.

(no subject)

Date: 2022-05-11 09:25 pm (UTC)
doseybat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] doseybat
Feeling very ignorant of all the things that caused this post

(no subject)

Date: 2022-05-12 12:53 am (UTC)
blue_mai: (Default)
From: [personal profile] blue_mai
Yes same here!
I hadn't noticed. I'd noticed the teenagers but not the conflict.

It's not teenagers wearing rainbow dungarees who are enacting violence against men with earrings and women with flannel shirts
Also this bit slightly bemused me as one of the first visible lesbians I knew in the early 90s wore rainbow dungarees, and I was remarking recently how the single dangly earring (George Michael style) is very much in with teenage young men at the moment. (ETA: I realise the post is not really about fashion.)

I'm obviously missing a lot of context and commentary.
Edited Date: 2022-05-13 06:57 am (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2022-05-12 02:03 pm (UTC)
yalovetz: A black and white scan of an illustration of an old Jewish man from Kurdistan looking a bit grizzled (electric sheep)
From: [personal profile] yalovetz
Yes, I'm in the dark as well. Probably for the best, it sounds like.

(no subject)

Date: 2022-05-12 02:03 pm (UTC)
hatam_soferet: (Default)
From: [personal profile] hatam_soferet
Yeah, same

Thoughts

Date: 2022-05-11 10:43 pm (UTC)
ysabetwordsmith: Cartoon of me in Wordsmith persona (Default)
From: [personal profile] ysabetwordsmith
>> Yes, some individual teenagers are horrible people, but even the horrible ones have very little societal power. <<

Yeah, blame the deciders. The Greatest Generation started the worst of the mess with things like nuclear power and plastics, but in their defense, they didn't realize what bad ideas those were and by the time anyone really did, that generation was fading. The Boomers did the most damage, followed somewhat later and lesser by their offspring. Millennials and younger? Cry in the ocean.

>>But they're entitled to choose their own identity words. If people prefer microidentities which describe their particular gender, sexual and romantic orientation and other parts of their being as precisely as possible, let them be. I am by nature a lumper, a broad umbrella person, but splitters aren't the enemy.<<

I find both broad and specific terms to be necessary. If you don't have a broad one, you can't unite similar things in a discussion. If you don't have narrow terms, you can't see the differences that matter. Everyone has the right to their own terms. I've gone through multiple ones myself.

>>If they're sometimes obnoxious in their criticism, well, so be it, it's part of learning how to navigate the world to figure out which battles are worth fighting and which approaches are effective.<<

The question is whether a given type or amount of criticism does more harm or more good. Boycotts can be useful, but I'm not a fan of Cancel Culture. Making everyone feel like they have to be pleasing all the time or be fired for something they did off-duty is a good way to kill people. Any zookeeper can tell you that animals need privacy and relief from stress, or they die.

>>I actually think it's ok for teenagers to be uncomfortable discussing sexually explicit topics with people twice their age or more.<<

Or anyone, for that matter. I think that any kind of mandatory sex education or training is abuse, because after all, it violates consent. But that has become the norm, and I think that's why it so often backfires: you're training people that with enough power, they can force others to listen to sex talk and if anyone protests, it's the victims who get punished.

>>I do believe that "don't like, don't read" is a good philosophy, but it doesn't take into account the way that the algorithm-driven internet, as well as individual bad actors, are in fact shoving unwanted material in front of young people all the time, and avoiding that takes effort beyond just not opting in.<<

Don't like, don't read applies where people have informed consent. Without information -- whether that's a sorting filter or warning labels or whatever -- they can't make effective decisions. And without power to choose what they read, they're at the mercy of teachers, parents, bosses, or whoever else is forcing them to read things they don't want or taking away things they do want. Don't read something that's described as not your thing, and then bitch because it is not your thing.

>>Take the 'no kink at Pride' thing.<<

Depends on how it's billed. If you call it "gay pride" then you're justified in including only homosexual males as a focus. If you call it "Family Pride" or "Corporate Pride" then you can set those standards. But when you call it "Queer Pride" or "QUILTBAG Pride" or "Pride" then you have to let people who identify under that description participate, or you're doing more harm than good by policing the kind of things that people come to Pride to escape.

>>In short, yes, it's uncomfortable when parts of your culture are rejected by the generation following you. But the real enemy is straight people who hold actual social power to harm Queer people, not teenagers who are sometimes clumsy and inept in their rebellion against the previous generation.<<

I don't care about other people's opinions. I care whether they have the power to hurt people or oppress people. Often, an effective solution is to make different spaces available for different tastes, so people don't bother each other and everyone can do their own thing. In public, for general-purpose events, there's more of a responsibility to make them accessible to the widest possible audience. And trying to force everyone to follow the tastes of one group or one individual is a problem.

Re: Thoughts

Date: 2022-05-12 08:05 pm (UTC)
adrian_turtle: (Default)
From: [personal profile] adrian_turtle
I think that any kind of mandatory sex education or training is abuse, because after all, it violates consent.

I think this is a really scary line of reasoning. We teach children to read whether they want to or not. We teach them civics and history and chemistry. Many secondary schools also teach first aid and financial literacy skills whether teens want to learn about them or not. Do you consider this abusive? Some schools teach fire safety, or second languages, or nutrition, or statistics.

I've seen some of the consequences of NOT teaching sex ed, and it's considerably worse than not teaching first aid or fire safety. Here are a few bits of sex ed I wish my students could be compelled to learn before they serve on juries or vote.

1) Pregnancy does not begin at the moment a man ejaculates. The pregnant woman cannot feel she is pregnant at that moment. Doctors count "pregnancy" from 2 weeks before that moment, but sperm meets egg several days after that moment.

2) Rape can cause pregnancy.

3) Birth control pills are usually effective but not quite always. The person needs to take one every day even if they don't have sex every day.

4) Pregnancy is very hard on a person's body even when nothing goes dangerously wrong. A C-section is a great big cut that takes a long time to heal.

5) Biological sex is complicated. Gender is even more complicated, but biological sex is not just a single pair of chromosomes you can see from across the room.


Re: Thoughts

Date: 2022-05-12 08:29 pm (UTC)
ysabetwordsmith: Cartoon of me in Wordsmith persona (Default)
From: [personal profile] ysabetwordsmith
>> I think this is a really scary line of reasoning. We teach children to read whether they want to or not. We teach them civics and history and chemistry. Many secondary schools also teach first aid and financial literacy skills whether teens want to learn about them or not. Do you consider this abusive? Some schools teach fire safety, or second languages, or nutrition, or statistics. <<

Whenever you force people to do things, it's risky, because if they aren't ready or aren't suited to the work, then it can harm them. There actually is a growing problem with this in schools now, where the demands damage mental and physical health; for example, as shown in the rising rate of suicide among younger children, in which school pressure is often implicated.

But sexuality is more intimate and delicate than other types of general knowledge. There's a range of time in which most children grow into it, and if you miss the right time for each child, then you're either forcing them to deal with developmentally inappropriate and possibly harmful material, or you're shorting them information they need sooner. The cookie-cutter approach to education isn't great in general, but can be downright dangerous in sex ed.

With mandatory classes, what people learn is that unwanted sex talk is just something they have to suffer through if they want an education, want a job, or want to live at all. That's a problem, because it doesn't stick with just the mandatory classes; it carries over to other contexts. And some people learn the opposite lesson, that it's okay to force people into sexualized conversations they don't want. It undermines the whole principle of consent. Hence the studies showing that mandatory classes often backfire and make the problem worse. Sadly that's accurate about how America handles sexuality; it's not about consent, it's about power.

I think it would work better to guarantee access to everyone who wants or needs it, and offer rewards for taking the classes. If you take driver's ed, you get to drive. If you take sex ed, you should get more privileges, or free birth control, or a raise at a job, etc.

>> I've seen some of the consequences of NOT teaching sex ed <<

So have I. I've also cleaned up after a lot of forced sexual education, and that problem is increasing. If you say "consent" but practice "mandatory" then people start thinking that force and suffering are part of consent.

>> compelled to learn before they serve on juries or vote.<<

Anything that limits people's right to vote undermines democracy. Sure I wish voters were better educated, but the moment you put any kind of qualification on voting, the bigots use it to cut out vast swaths of disadvantaged people. We're having that problem with racial discrimination now.

(no subject)

Date: 2022-05-12 12:36 am (UTC)
lilacsigil: 12 Apostles rocks, text "Rock On" (12 Apostles)
From: [personal profile] lilacsigil
I do believe that "don't like, don't read" is a good philosophy, but it doesn't take into account the way that the algorithm-driven internet, as well as individual bad actors, are in fact shoving unwanted material in front of young people all the time, and avoiding that takes effort beyond just not opting in.

I agree with your post generally, especially the parts about corporate culture, but I don't agree with this as it relates to fandom. People go looking for things to be outraged by and attack, no matter how many warnings are slapped on it, and this is not an algorithm problem on, say, Discord or AO3 or even Tumblr and Dreamwidth. (It definitely is on Twitter, though.) At some stage as you click through the warnings of whatever content or go back 10 years in someone's feed, you have to take responsibility for seeking it out.

(no subject)

Date: 2022-05-12 02:00 am (UTC)
verazea: (stones)
From: [personal profile] verazea

I won't be drawn into generational conflict in the LGBTQ+ community

I think we hang around different bits of the queer community and different bits of the queer Internet because I'm not really seeing an inter-generational conflict.

There are people who love to criticise young queer people for the terms and language they use to describe themselves, for seeing things from a different point of view and caring about different things, and for having the audacity to criticise older queer people. I do find myself defending against the critics as they rarely try to see the good in younger communities.

it's upsetting when some younger people reject 'Queer' as an identity when our generation fought so hard to reclaim it

I don't see younger people rejecting queer as an identity. If anything, I still see older LGBT people objecting to it in the same ways they have for the past few decades whilst younger people are more likely to accept the identity as an umbrella term.

If people prefer microidentities which describe their particular gender, sexual and romantic orientation and other parts of their being as precisely as possible, let them be.

Lots of people struggle with microidentities but I think they can be really valuable. Growing up I totally lacked any good language to describe my gender. Microlabels give me useful shorthand, and terms like demiflux actually helped me understand my experience of gender better. Similarly I typically describe my sexuality as queer but I can use further labels to be more precise when that's useful. The number and range of terms can be intimidating but I think of it as a taxonomy from the broad to more precise.

I'm a member of a few communities that skew young and in many ways I'm much more at home there than I was in online queer spaces 20 years ago. They have the language for me to describe my queerness, care about social justice and lack a lot of what creeped me out. They certainly do a better job of protecting teenagers from abusive adults than the online communities 13 year old me stumbled into in the 90s where I had to fend them off myself. That's not to say there aren't problems. Corporate moderation and censorship is arbitrary and unforgiving and doesn't take context into account. People are much more aware that what they say can live forever. People self-censor more. And on some platforms everyone has to deal with the algorithm.

The queer kids are alright.

(no subject)

Date: 2022-05-12 05:04 pm (UTC)
finding_helena: Girl staring off into the distance. Text from "River of Dreams" by Billy Joel (Default)
From: [personal profile] finding_helena
Whenever I hear the discussion of corporations at Pride, I think of the time I saw two back-to-back posts on Facebook. One from a Gen X friend lamenting how corporatized Pride had become and how it was better when it was more underground and grassrootsy. One from a younger baby boomer where he was thrilled after decades of being shunned for his identity to see so many people and so many allies and that his employer even had a team there, and that helped encourage him to feel welcome at that employer when he hadn't been in many places.

Different people are going to like different things and that's ok.

(no subject)

Date: 2022-05-12 07:02 pm (UTC)
qilora: (Default)
From: [personal profile] qilora
"If they're sometimes obnoxious in their criticism, well, so be it,"

people can often have sharp tongues (esp. among the younger generations)..

seeing the term "Queer culture" brought back nostalgia and teary-eyes... i think this conflict is unable to judge me as being inherently right or wrong, it is just defining who i will be able to be friends with.

(no subject)

Date: 2022-05-22 06:10 pm (UTC)
silveradept: A kodama with a trombone. The trombone is playing music, even though it is held in a rest position (Default)
From: [personal profile] silveradept
I filed this away to think upon for a while, and now I think I've thought about it enough to make a coherent and accurate comment.

As an information professional who works with children and teens, we often talk about the boundary between curating your own experience and trying to curate someone else's experience for them. I think the "generational conflict" that you're articulating is one that falls in this area. Complicating things is that I suspect most places that want to drive "engagement" and "eyeballs" don't give their users sufficiently robust tools to curate their feeds, and they give an increasing amount of things that have to be curated because of those "engagement" metrics. So it seems pretty normal, especially in a world that's encouraging young people to make their voices heard and to try and cut off systemic injustices at the source, to start trying to curate other people's experiences in the hopes that their own experience will finally be curated sufficiently that they can be happy with it.

At that point, the bad actors appear and say "Your experience will be so much more curated to your liking if you go after these people and make them go away from your platform." And there's a deliberate blurring there between "what you create in fiction" and "who you are outside of fiction" by those bad actors, which makes sense to a generation that has always had to have their façade on because someone is always watching them. We lack those spaces for people to grow and learn that the early Internet world had, and it's less easy to someone to leave a pseud that no longer suits behind and not have it come back around to being connected to them in some way. It begins to look like you can either have the corporate sanitized world/Pride that obscures and ignores the reality of how complex people are or you have to accept and be ready for anything and everything in the name of sex-positivity, and there's always going to be more obvious monsters on the sex-positive side.

As you say, it's not the kids who are the issue. At least for me, it's the twin issues that the kids have nowhere to mess up and come into themselves under the guidance of kind and knowledgeable mentors (and without active government interference trying to stomp out their very existence from being seen or discussed) and the lack of control that most people have in being able to zealously curate their inputs and ensure that their outputs only go to the people they want to see them, instead of being shoved in front of someone else for "engagement." If someone wants to swing their fists around, they can do so, so long as their fists aren't hitting anyone or anything else. At (Preferably before) that point, there has to be negotiation about who has right of way and why.

(There's a bigger idea behind this about the responsibilities of curating a library collection, selection and deselection of materials, and the ethical responsibilities I have, as a trained professional, to both provide information and avoid having harmful materials to my communities, and how much I'm limited by laws, court precedents, and institutional morals and practices. That's a lot of inside baseball, but the ideas of "you should be able to curate your own experience" and "you should not be able to curate someone else's experiences for them" are useful high-level summations, even if the applications of each of them are always contextual.)

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